Richard H. Brodhead, President of Duke University

Richard H. Brodhead, President of Duke University is to visit Tsinghua University in China on June 29, 2006. Before his visit to Tsinghua, Xing Zong,the then president of Chinese Students and Scholar Association (DCSSA) had an interview with President Richard H. Brodhead.

"Self-enlargement", transition from Yale to Duke

Z(Xing Zong): First, let me start by thanking you for providing me this opportunity of interview.

B(Richard H. Brodhead): It's my great pleasure.

Z: Look at your resume, I would like to divide your 40 years in Yale into 4 sections, eight years as a student, eight years' teaching to get your tenure, 13 years from associate professor to Dean and 11 years on the position of dean. Let's first focus on your student section. Do you think the transition from undergraduate to graduate a big one? I read that you consider this was one of the most difficult times in your life. Why do you consider it to be a painstaking process?

B: That's right. You studied me carefully. (laugh) I would say that my first two months in graduate school were the hardest time in my life. In the U.S., undergraduate school gives you a whole life. There is intellectual life, social life, plenty of extracurricular activities, all those things. And then when I went to graduate school, all of a sudden, I had only one subject to study, and only one dimension of my life. I found that transition hard. Although I have to say, once I made that transition, I found that it is all about achieving intellectual independence. In your undergraduate days, it can be enough just to be a very good student. But when I went to graduate school, being a good student was not enough any more. You had to make personal contributions to your field, and to have ideas of your own. It was period of strain before I began to feel mental independence. After that, life becomes easier. I found it hard to narrow myself, but once I began my career, I began to broaden myself again.

Z: So this is a process going from a broad discipline to a narrow focus.

B: That's right. Actually some people don't find that hard. Some people do.

Z: I agreed with you. For natural science students, the situation is pretty much the same. I remember once reading an editorial in New York Times. The author described his graduate school experience as: I can see that my world was shrinking to fit the dimensions of my advisor's laboratory.

B: Yeah, in my undergraduate years, I read English literature, world history, American history; I also read Asian literature, Asian philosophy. In graduate school, my intellect horizons became much smaller, very tightly bounded to my specialization. You just described the process better than I did. Obviously you understand what I mean.

Z: Thanks. Many students have a clear career path in their college while some others don't. I would like to know what your plan was when you were in college and even in Graduate school. It seems that you never thought you could become an administrator but eventually when you took the post, you discovered that it was far more interesting than in the sub-worlds of departments.

B: When I was in the early years of my college, I knew that I wanted to become a university teacher. So I felt a strong sense of calling of my vocation from early on. When I got out of Graduate School and began my life as a teacher, I was very happy. It never occurred to me that I would become an administrator. I knew some people did those jobs, but I just never thought about it, and I didn't know why they would want to do that. But later in life, when I became the department chair, and then dean of Yale college, whose job is to interact with undergraduate students and faculty in all departments, I learned about different disciplines, I learned about the economics of universities, I learned about admissions policy and its challenges, and a hundred other aspects of running a university. I used to have a passive vision of administrative work: someone has to do the "dirty work"! But when I became an administrator, I found it was a powerful source of education. In the American Universities, as long as you are in a single department or laboratory, it is very hard to get a sense of how the whole organization works. What the challenge is about. Being administrator doesn't mean I don't like academia any more. I still love the intellectual life, in fact I just taught my first class here at Duke and I enjoyed it very much.

Z: So being a teacher and an administrator is very different. I guess being a Yale Dean and a Duke President must be even more different.

B: Yes, it is different. But there is a transition. When I was a dean, I interacted with the faculty members, listening, explaining. Being a President now allows me to take the responsibilities of the whole university. For example, I never dealt with a medical school, Business school, law school before, but in my new job there's a much larger universe. There are also national political issues that universities have to be involved with. When I was the dean, most of my work was to deal with students and faculty, while being the President, you are the public representative of the university, to the public at large, and to the members of government. Next week I will speak with members of the Cabinet. I will try to ask them to put more funding into science research. (laugh)

Z: So you will consider your transition from Yale to Duke, in your own words, a "self-enlargement"?

B: You know every words of what I said. I am very grateful to that. (laugh) When I was announced to be Duke's ninth President, I was very happy. I have millions of friends in Yale. But I have learned so much in the past 2 years, about public health, the economic situation, the political challenges of this university; international relationships�Cit has been a major education.

Duke's uniqueness-spirit of positiveness and optimism, very strong sense of cooperation

Z: Compared with Yale, what is the uniqueness of Duke, what is his advantage or room to improve?

B: Yale is a truly excellent university. Yale was founded in 1701. As a result, many things in Yale have reached a fully developed stage. Whereas here in Duke, a much younger school, you really feel you are still near the beginning of everything, near a founding moment--to put it another way, here we're still in the pioneering stage. When I have visitors on campus, I can show them remarkable things we have done just in the past five years. So for me, the difference between the schools is that, one is already at a very high level, the other is still rising rapidly to a very high level. A result of this fact is that there is a spirit of positiveness and optimism here, a sense that it is in our power to make Duke better. It is a happy aspiration. Also, at Duke there is a very strong sense of cooperation between departments. In so many American Universities, the schools are excellent, but they are separated from each other. Here at Duke, the interaction between schools has reached a quite remarkable stage. If you ask people from the engineering school and the medical school to work together, they will do so and will come up with great ideas. Because Duke is new, we have the willingness to improve. There is very little desire here to preserve or protect the status quo. People here never say, what we have now is very fine, it will last for another 100 years. Everyone wants to become better.

Z: I have the same feeling of what you have said. As a President of a university, you must have a whole view of it. For example, Harvard or Stanford seems to be broad and big, while Caltech is small but concentrated. How do you position Duke?

B: It is an interesting thing that in this country, excellent universities can be very different from each other in character and scope. Harvard is a fabulous university, it has everything: a medical school, a business school, a divinity school, strong social sciences, and strong humanities as well. MIT is also fabulous, but it has engineering and a just a few other strong disciplines. MIT and Caltech are narrowly focused universities. I myself am more comfortable to stay in a broad university. Duke is very strong in medical research, law, business, public policy, environmental studies, and a range of other fields. I sometimes found Duke and Stanford to share a lot in common. I say this not because we both have engineering schools, but more because we are both new schools. It is quite easy to put your new ideas into practice at such places. You know what I mean?

Z: I guess you mean that we don't have too many traditional constraints.

B: Yes, these schools are more open to entrepreneurship.

Z: You have devoted 40 years in high education, take a look at the students now on Campus, what kind of difference do you notice compared with the students in your college years?

B: When I was a student, that's a long time ago, a lot of things can't be remembered. Of course, fashion is changed, how the student dress is changed. When I was at the end of my college, it was the time of student revolution. But I have to say, when I have serious discussion with any students, I feel the continuity more than the changes. There is a quality of intelligence, freshness and curiosity that I have always enjoyed in students. So I haven't found too much change.

Z: Continuity more than change. Now let's get to the second section of interview which main concerns your idea about high education. Yale President Dr. Levin described you as one of the greatest deans in Yale 300 years' history.

B: Thank you.

Intellectual energy most important for a world-class university

Z: So in your opinion, to build a world-class research university, what are the important components?

B: Money of course plays a key role, but the intellectual energy of students and faculty are the most important thing.

Z: Yes, students are important. What kind of qualifications should a student possess in order to get into Duke? In other words, what qualifications do you think are important for a student?

B: It is different for undergraduate students and graduate students, since graduate students need more specialized skills. But of course the main traits are the same for both. For example, I want every student to have curiosities, intellectual creativity, and willingness to work hard, skill at thinking up new questions. I would say, in the future, the kind of students who are going to have more success in the world should have versatility. They start with one specialization, move into other things. They should use what they have learned to attack a new question. Be able to turning around, people move in one direction, when challenge comes up, they move to another direction.

Z: Ok, let me ask you a tricky question. If a student has very impressive extracurricular activities, but when examining his transcript, you won't feel equally satisfied. Do you think this student will still have chances to get into Duke?

B: Well, academic achievements should always come first. In American university, it has a very rich extracurricular culture. It is fun to join sports. Many other people are fine dancers, musicians. When we admit the new students, we would like to consider the student as a whole. But the academic part should be our first priority. Take your own physics department for example. It would be nice if a student were a fine singer. But if this guy can only sing, we can't admit him into physics anyway. So the ideal situation would be to have someone who excels in academia, but also good at other things.

Z: What about the admission for alumni's son or daughter?

B: We certain give considerations to Duke Alumni. There is a value to have the family tradition. But the students have to be well qualified to get in. I can give you a number, this year we have in total 20, 000 applicants, out of which 1,600 students will be admitted. I guess all I am going to say is, each student who gets into Duke should be qualified.

Z: Once students are admitted, one big goal of a great university is to cultivate their independent thinking, it is far from enough to just learn what the textbooks have given to the students. How do you think Duke has done in this aspect? So that students can keep learning at the rest of their life.

B: First of all, the great majority of our classes are small, the great majority of classes are based on discussion, rather than the teacher has the final word. Therefore mental activity and independence are cultivated in an early stage. Right now we are also expanding the opportunities for independent research. For graduate students, needless to say, you already start your own research, but it is also important for undergraduate students. On teacher's side, it is important for teachers to realize, when you teach the students, the students also have something to teach you. So I think the real question is that whether the culture of a university favors independence, favors students taking initiatives, favor student raising their own questions and try to find the answer. Fortunately, the answer to these questions for Duke is "Yes".

Z: I agreed that Duke has improved a lot in this aspect. Still I have a friend who studies in Stanford. He told me that Stanford encourages students to drop out of school and start their own business. How do you think Duke will treat this situation?

B: This is a very interesting thing. When we think about Stanford, you always think about Yahoo and Google. If you study in Stanford, you will never get your physics Ph.D. (laugh). You will become a billionaire before that happens. We have a lot of students who study engineering, or biomedical engineering, from very early on, the school teaches the elements of design. You also learn entrepreneurship, how to solve the problem. So we are now consciously trying to develop the skills of entrepreneurship. If we haven't had our first Google yet, just wait.

Z: To make students leaders in this world, the student organizations play a key role in a university, for example in Yale, Skull and Bones society is very famous.

B: (laugh). I don't know Skull and Bones society became so famous in China.

Z: I guess the total number of student organizations in Duke is no less than 200. How do you think the student organization can play a role in cultivate students' leadership?

B: Well, in American Universities, students don't just study in class. Students have to take the initiatives. There is a debate society, political society, engineering without borders, and a hundred other organizations. Academic rigor developed one mental skill, but leadership needs more than academic skill alone. You have to learn how to take initiatives; you should learn how to bring a group of people to accomplish something. So the extracurricular activities in American Universities gave people a sense that it's fun to use your powers, rather than just sit here and do nothing. For example, I can make up a project and then carry it through. If you direct a play for instance, that's good because you develop your theatric skill, but actually other skills as well. Your leadership, make something out of nothing, getting a group of people to work together. So indeed, the ideal education is that in addition to the subjects that we teach, we are trying to teach every skill: communication skills, problem-solving sills, etc.

Five greatest alumni of Duke University

Z: Thank you. My next question is to explore your standards of judging people. If asked to name five greatest alumni graduated from Duke, who would you like to mention and why?

B: If you give me an hour, I might come up with a better idea. But I'll tell you some names that come on top of my head. I would like to mention Judy Woodruff, a national correspondent for CNN. She was considered to be the equal of the very best political correspondent in this country in past 20 years. She is here in Duke now and she will teach a course in Sanford Institute of Public Policy next semester. Who else do I want to mention? Peter Nicholas, who graduated in the class of 1964, used to work for a pharmaceutical company, then he quit and founded his own company. This is Boston Scientific, the giant medical supply company, one of the most successful new companies founded in America in modern times. Or I might mention Melinda Gates, who studied Computer Science at Duke as an undergraduate and then went to business school at Duke. Her work with Bill Gates through the Gates Foundation has been a major force for reform in education and global health care, and Time magazine chose the Gateses as its People of the Year 2005. On the younger end, Paul Farmer is one of the most famous medical humanitarians in this country. Through his work in Haiti, Rwanda, Russia, and elsewhere, he has been a leading force in bringing advanced medical research to care for the sick in the world's poorest countries. Now let me take someone famous in a very different way. The Duke art gallery will open next week an exhibit of African American art collected by Grant Hill. Grant Hill is a very famous basketball player, who turned out also to be a distinguished art collector. That perfectly shows the mixed gifts we value here. I'm leaving many people out--I should probably mention the name of John Mack, who is the CEO of Morgan Stanley, the large financial firm��but I know you limited me to five.

Z: The interesting thing is that to a Chinese, the most famous graduate from Duke is probably President Nixon.

B: Yes, Nixon went to law school here. As you know, in this country, he has a mixed reputation. But in terms of foreign policy, he is certainly one of the most creative Presidents in U.S history. Especially re-opening the relation with China, that really shows a vision for global politics. I am sure over time, Duke will have more Presidents, just wait.

Z: I notice the Presidents in U.S. universities usually have social science background, while in Chinese Universities, Presidents usually have science background. Have you ever observed this interesting difference?

B: That's right. I did notice that. Many American universities Presidents have social science background. Many come from economics, law, and business school. But there are also many scientists who become the American University presidents. Quite a large number. I have a humanity background, which is rare but not unheard of. The president of the University of Chicago and the University of North Carolina have degrees in music!

Z: Just curious, do you think a president's background matters for a university?

B: The answer is yes and no. whatever the fields you are coming from, you know the things you learn through that field. But whatever the field you are coming from, you have to be willing to learn and respect other fields. For me, now I seldom spend much time on the humanities because I know the humanities very well. I have spent much more time in learning about medical research, that's very fun to me, very inspiring.

"I want the excellence of Duke will be well known in China"

Z: Thanks. Now comes to the third part of the interview, which talks about Duke and China relationships. So how many times have you been to China?

B: I have been to HongKong twice and I went to the Chinese mainland once. I spent two weeks there in the year of 2001, I was in Beijing, I was in Xi'an, Shu zhou and Shanghai. I was there for a conference held in Tsinghua University, and I will go back to Tsinghua this summer.

Z: How many Chinese universities have you visited?

B: Well, right now Tsinghua is the only one. But I will definitely visit more. I do find a lot of connections in China. The Duke Law School has a program with Tsinghua. The head of the health service and medical research was establishing relations with Peking University to explore the research in cardiology. We have in Sanford Institute a new program which gives finance and policy training to Chinese officials. But still, I have much to learn about China. I have spent a good deal of time in learning the history of China, including the modern history. Chinese universities are moving forward very rapidly in the past ten years. They will play an increasing important role in higher education in the world.

Z: Talk about the Chinese students in American Universities. Yale is proud to have Yung Wing ('1854) as the first Chinese student graduated from American college who contributed a lot to the education exchange between China-US. Duke also has Charlie Soong (1881) whose three daughters changed the modern Chinese history. But recently Duke is slightly falling back in its Ivy league peers in internationalization. What do you think you will be able to create to attract more Chinese students?

B: I read about Yung Wing's biography "My life in China and America", which was fascinating. I think there are more than 300 Chinese students here in Duke. Our goal is not to have a fixed number of Chinese students; we want to draw the smartest students from China. Certainly we already have a lot of very good Chinese students here. We also have excellent Chinese faculties. But I agree that Duke needs to work to become better known. When I was in Yale ten years ago, Harvard was much better known in China. Since then, Yale has been quite actively in promoting itself in China. I think Duke has steadily increasing its reputation in China, and I am sure in the next ten years, we will become better known. I don't want just to do some advertising, I want the excellence of Duke will be well known in China.

Z: You are right. Yale has been very eager to present itself. One example will suffice, President Richard Levin has visited China five times in the last four years.

B: That's right, though I believe he made his first visit to China only in his fifth year as Yale President. I expect to visit China every year or two while I am president of Duke.

Z: Although there are a lot of Chinese graduate students here in Duke, there are relatively few Chinese undergraduate students since the $40,000 annual tuition is prohibitive, do you think Duke will provide more financial aid to the International students?

B: For some undergraduate students from foreign countries, we are able to supply full financial aid at the present moment, but not to all. We are aware of the importance of scholarship assistance. In the future, we hope to be much more generous in supplying financial aid for international students. This is a significant priority for the university. You know right now, the best American students would like to go to the university where not everyone is American. Last Wednesday, I went to an undergraduate party on west campus. There are five or six boys and girls from this country, 2 girls from Shanghai, China, 1 from Brazil. People from all over the world, that's a great value that a university can have. For these smart people, they will meet and learn and appreciate each other across the national boundary.

Z: At the end of this interview, let me introduce a little bit what DCSSA does to improve Duke's reputation in China. We have set up a new website. www.dukechina.org, it features both Chinese and English language. We have launched several new columns on the website, one is to introduce the Chinese faculty in Duke, and one describes the distinguished Chinese alumni graduated from Duke. One new program is to introduce each department here at Duke.

B: Fantastic! I really appreciate your help; I think our students are our best ambassadors. They help to promote Duke's reputation in China. I really enjoyed talking with you.